Curse

onikolas · Jun 06, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Whether they are overpowered or not is debatable but either the skill descriptions should be fixed or the Expertise description should be fixed. Its not within the ethos of Guild Wars.

lol - And IWAY is?

Divineshadows · Jun 06, 2006, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect

If we get really lucky maybe all these threads on touchers will have touch rangers forcing people to learn to kite, something so essential that I find it hilarious in TA when people stand and let me pound on them with my war.

Indeed not enough players know how to really kite and pre-kite. The problem with touch rangers is there are so many warriors in this game in RA and TA that find kiting a foreign concept. I have seen players that I know to be good players stoop down to playing a touch ranger to exploit the non-kiting warriors and this saddens me. It is like they have turned to the dark side.

However, the majority of the touchers are scrubs and I take a certain twisted pleasure in hunting these scrubs by running a persistence + crippling anguish anti-melee build: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3046415

I like the build for its flexibility (snares are very dynamic in use), damage output, and damage prevention. If the opposing team has only one melee that you need to keep crippled, then you can also cripple one of their offensive casters (I usually avoid monks due to CoP). The snaring power of this build allows you to help your own warrior to build adrenaline faster and do more damage in the process. It is also a good build in split and gank situations for kiting a melee off to some remote part of the map (let your monk know your intention here), hexing them up, leaving them to die, and then rejoining your own team. I have noticed that the smarter players do not fall for this trap, but it is still worth trying as you could catch a smart player in a sleep deprived state that is not aware of their relative position to their monk.

One note is that with this build you will really piss off the enemy melee and in their rage they will usually go after you...so just keep your distance.

Conan The Castrater · Jun 06, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The first sentence of that paragraph almost seems to sum it up, but then the second in true Anet fashion is complete garbage.

'Several skills'? 'especially those'?

Another case of misleading descriptions ingame, I think...

Trying to throw everyone off-track that you made an innocent mistake with the 'attack skills' or 'non-spell skills' blunder JR?

Quote:

Several skills

The only ambiguous part of the sentence....

Quote:

especially those related to Energy costs

Archer's Signet All your non-attack skills are disabled for 15...9 seconds, your next 1...4 bow attacks cost no energy.

Marksman's Wager For 12 seconds, you gain 5...9 Energy whenever your arrows hit, but lose 10 Energy whenever your arrows fail to strike.

Quote:

and skill recharge times

Oath Shot If Oath Shot hits, all your other skills are recharged. If it misses, all your skills are disabled for 10 seconds. (50% miss chance with Expertise at 7 or less.)

Quote:

become more effective with higher Expertise.

Archer's Signet All your non-attack skills are disabled for 15...9 seconds, your next 1...4 bow attacks cost no energy.

Marksman's Wager For 12 seconds, you gain 5...9 Energy whenever your arrows hit, but lose 10 Energy whenever your arrows fail to strike.

Oath Shot If Oath Shot hits, all your other skills are recharged. If it misses, all your skills are disabled for 10 seconds. (50% miss chance with Expertise at 7 or less.)

Admittedly, not all expertise skills relate to energy and skill recharge, but its pretty damned obvious what A-net are referring to when you consider the descriptions of other attributes. For anyone about to argue there are many expertise skills that dont have anything to do with energy or skill recharge, take this as an example.

Inspiration
Put points into Inspiration to pump up the duration and effect of your Inspiration spells, which steal Energy from enemies.

Do all inspiration magic skills steal energy? No. Its just a general blurb to give you a feeling off the attribute.

Patiently awaiting JR to pwn me.

He's a smart b***h, i know he will.

EDIT: To keep on-topic, i think the main issue with touch rangers is the absolute lack of skill required and lack of effort, to play the build proficiently and for it to be really effective.

Cyril Aspect · Jun 06, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Indeed not enough players know how to really kite and pre-kite. The problem with touch rangers is there are so many warriors in this game in RA and TA that find kiting a foreign concept. I have seen players that I know to be good players stoop down to playing a touch ranger to exploit the non-kiting warriors and this saddens me. It is like they have turned to the dark side.

However, the majority of the touchers are scrubs and I take a certain twisted pleasure in hunting these scrubs by running a persistence + crippling anguish anti-melee build: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3046415

I like the build for its flexibility (snares are very dynamic in use), damage output, and damage prevention. If the opposing team has only one melee that you need to keep crippled, then you can also cripple one of their offensive casters (I usually avoid monks due to CoP). The snaring power of this build allows you to help your own warrior to build adrenaline faster and do more damage in the process. It is also a good build in split and gank situations for kiting a melee off to some remote part of the map (let your monk know your intention here), hexing them up, leaving them to die, and then rejoining your own team. I have noticed that the smarter players do not fall for this trap, but it is still worth trying as you could catch a smart player in a sleep deprived state that is not aware of their relative position to their monk.

One note is that with this build you will really piss off the enemy melee and in their rage they will usually go after you...so just keep your distance.

Exactly!

kiting training and build making FTW

JR · Jun 06, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan The Castrater

...

I never questioned that it effects skills relating to recharge and energy costs. The factor that shed doubt on the paragraph was the "Several skills, especially those related to....". The use of 'especially' implies that it also relates to other skills, outside of those mentioned.

However, that is all beside the point. I was getting at the fact that in game descriptions written by Anet have a habit of being largely vague, inaccurate and occasionally having no bearing on the actual game it's self.

King's Spectre · Jun 06, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

People like to toss around "exploit" a little too much. Wow a build that will take out W/Mo's, imagine that! Better run out and ban those Mesmer exploiters!

In need of a nerf? Maybe. I think it was about right in factions before the bite skill. It IS great fun to drag a Wa/Mo out into the middle of nowhere, then turn around and suck the life out of him.

I respect a warrior that can beat a R/N 1v1. The best one I saw I think was a W/E hammer warrior using frenzy (no penalty vs touch rangers) and a whole buch of knock-downs.

Divineshadows · Jun 06, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by King's Spectre

People like to toss around "exploit" a little too much. Wow a build that will take out W/Mo's, imagine that! Better run out and ban those Mesmer exploiters!

I think you misunderstood my use of the word exploit. I was referring to exploiting lack of player skill; you seem to have taken me to mean a broken game mechanic which is not at all what I was stating.

Zui · Jun 06, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

in game descriptions written by Anet have a habit of being largely vague, inaccurate and occasionally having no bearing on the actual game it's self.

QFT. Hire someone to write the skill discriptions ANET?

Dravyn · Jun 06, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Since there's now at least..at least..one touch ranger per group in RA and TA these days I might try running a Fear Me war build tonight after work and see how well that goes. Suck their energy dry and then beat them down, if possible

SnipiousMax · Jun 06, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

Since there's now at least..at least..one touch ranger per group in RA and TA these days I might try running a Fear Me war build tonight after work and see how well that goes. Suck their energy dry and then beat them down, if possible

If you can last 15 seconds, they'll run out of energy on their own.

Dravyn · Jun 06, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Warriors don't last 15 seconds against Touch Rangers.

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 06, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

I've always been a bit mystified at people who poo-poo R/N touch-spammers in RA because it's something that won't work in GvG. With the mechanics of RA it's actually quite a strong build, and difficult enough to counter that I wouldn't really call it a 'gimmick.'

It's a pretty strong melee DPS force, and its lack of ability to spike doesn't matter as much in RA where you can't really coordinate with your team. It has excellent self-healing capability, enough to deal with most forms of damage better than a pure warrior who's healing all relies on a 2s Signet. Your damage is difficult to deal with, since it goes through prot and isn't stopped by either melee counters (blocks/evades, blinds) or spell counters (go down the list.) You're vulnerable to stuff like Distracting Shot if the other team has a decent ranger, but even so you're going to pump out far more damage per round than a warrior. Warriors in RA are almost always crippled, blinded, and hexed to hell, seriously reducing their ability to deal damage in almost every match.

And while kiting is definitely a good thing to do against these sorts of builds, it won't save you unless you have a competent boon prot backing you up. As a warrior it's not really feasable to stop kiting and self-heal with one of these on you. If your team doesn't have a monk you'll have to spend the entire match running, and eventually die anyway. Meanwhile, the touch ranger is getting tons of self-healing from the life he's stealing, countering incidental damage that gets thrown his way.

I'm not saying it's overpowered, but within the mechanics of RA it's quite good, probably stronger than most warriors. I'm always baffled at the 'learn2play' comments against warriors who lose to touch rangers in RA, because I don't really see any way that the warrior can win without monk support. If it was any PvP mode besides RA it might even be a balance issue.

moo moo · Jun 07, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Another reason I love my mez SO MUCH

Bloodied Blade · Jun 07, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

@Wasteland Squidget, I gotta agree with you there...While it's irritating to see so many R/N touch spammers playing, it is an effective build and does deserve some credit.

There are so many common builds in RA that we groan at the sight of them and laugh at the sight of anything else...People are strange.

Red Locust · Jun 07, 2006, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I wouldn't really agree with that; at all.

Ether Renewal smite was sick, and if you ran it well you would probably have a large amount of success with it. It was actually a good build to run. Touch Rangers are just a gimmick, nothing more.

We went into TA the other day, with two anti-melee/degen hexers, an axe Warrior and a Boon Prot. No snares at all. Came up against a team of four touch rangers... it was over in about two minutes. Good players will beat them.

I meant it in terms of commonness, annoyance and ease of use more than anything. The people playing it are generally not too good either, so that's part of why they usually get rolled like most other TA teams.

And you can't keep a straight face and say ER smite wasn't just a gimmick. I can still feel the sharp pain in my middle three fingers from HoH'ing with dual smite like a year ago. Nothing but a button mash.

LightningHell · Jun 07, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

And you can't keep a straight face and say ER smite wasn't just a gimmick. I can still feel the sharp pain in my middle three fingers from HoH'ing with dual smite like a year ago. Nothing but a button mash.

Yes, but it actually beat people. :P

JR · Jun 07, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I've always been a bit mystified at people who poo-poo R/N touch-spammers in RA because it's something that won't work in GvG. With the mechanics of RA it's actually quite a strong build, and difficult enough to counter that I wouldn't really call it a 'gimmick.'

It's a pretty strong melee DPS force, and its lack of ability to spike doesn't matter as much in RA where you can't really coordinate with your team. It has excellent self-healing capability, enough to deal with most forms of damage better than a pure warrior who's healing all relies on a 2s Signet. Your damage is difficult to deal with, since it goes through prot and isn't stopped by either melee counters (blocks/evades, blinds) or spell counters (go down the list.) You're vulnerable to stuff like Distracting Shot if the other team has a decent ranger, but even so you're going to pump out far more damage per round than a warrior. Warriors in RA are almost always crippled, blinded, and hexed to hell, seriously reducing their ability to deal damage in almost every match.

And while kiting is definitely a good thing to do against these sorts of builds, it won't save you unless you have a competent boon prot backing you up. As a warrior it's not really feasable to stop kiting and self-heal with one of these on you. If your team doesn't have a monk you'll have to spend the entire match running, and eventually die anyway. Meanwhile, the touch ranger is getting tons of self-healing from the life he's stealing, countering incidental damage that gets thrown his way.

I'm not saying it's overpowered, but within the mechanics of RA it's quite good, probably stronger than most warriors. I'm always baffled at the 'learn2play' comments against warriors who lose to touch rangers in RA, because I don't really see any way that the warrior can win without monk support. If it was any PvP mode besides RA it might even be a balance issue.

Whilst I do agree with the basis of your post; I cannot honestly bring myself to be that complimentary to a build that is only strong in RA. Something that is no more than a gimmick outside of RA, can't be much more than a gimmick inside of it.

I have always been of the opinion that if people actually took decent well built characters into RA, then you would actually get some good groups forming up. Instead of having one Monk and three offensive characters that need to carry so much defense and self healing that they strulggle to actually kill anything... It is no longer the days where you could enter RA 20 times and only get one monk... who would be a smiter.

Zui · Jun 07, 2006, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I have always been of the opinion that if people actually took decent well built characters into RA, then you would actually get some good groups forming up. Instead of having one Monk and three offensive characters that need to carry so much defense and self healing that they can't actually kill anything...

It'd also require compitent players on your team, which is even rarer than decent builds.

Retribution X · Jun 07, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

It's overpowered. period. I can take one down, But a full 4 man team in TA, or AB, you might as well quit, as there's no way to win, unless you have 4 mesmers...

These guys are overpowered, mostly because they do high DPS, and can spam REALLY fast.

It's annoying in AB when you've got 5 touch rangers chasing your monks around.

put one on a monk and let him kite, you are pretty much screwed...

Zui · Jun 07, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

You know, I was playing TA earlier, we faced a 3 touch ranger 1 boonprot team. We won. We had one mesmer. Snares+kiting ftw?